If Sex is Different Than Gender…

If sex is different than gender…

And those who advocate for gender identity to be recognized legally…

Then how come them folks who believe gender is different from sex…

Aren’t advocating for same gender marriage to be recognized in the court of law?

If a couple don’t want to assign a gender to their baby, they call it a “theyby”.

Can the child eventually sue it’s parents for not recognizing it’s preferred pronouns?

Why are transgenders and drag people so adamant about reinforcing gender stereotypes?

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59 thoughts on “If Sex is Different Than Gender…

  1. Something Kinky this way comes …

    “Well, I’m not the world’s most physical guy
    But when she squeezed me tight she nearly
    broke my spine
    Oh my Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola
    Well, I’m not dumb but I can’t understand
    Why she walked like a woman
    but talked like a man …
    Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
    It’s a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world
    Except for Lola
    Lo lo lo lo Lola
    Well, I’d left home just a week before
    And I’d never ever kissed a woman before
    But Lola smiled and took me by the hand
    She said, “Little boy, gonna make you a man”
    Well, I’m not the world’s most masculine man
    But I know what I am and I’m glad I’m a man
    And so is Lola
    Lo lo lo lo Lola, lo lo lo lo Lola”
    ~ Ray Davies (The Kinks)

  2. Marleen

    https://isna.org/faq/frequency/

    How common is intersex?

    https://youtu.be/5dJduGC3HyQ
    Intersex Children: Waiting to Decide on Surgery?

    I don’t know what percentage of transsexuals are intersex, but it’s not the same thing. An intersex person can decide to be transsexual (attempt to reclaim the gender or sex that was denied), but that’s not always what is happening when someone tries to transition.

    If doctors can perform surgery when a baby is born and then later too, there is more money to be made. (And promoting an idea of confusion when there isn’t a biological reason is more business.) I think most of these people probably don’t need surgery at all.

    Homosexual men, I hear, don’t want to be very associated with trans or intersex people — they tend to prefer to be seen as powerful.

    Maybe a coalition of LBTIQ would be helpful.

    One of my sons and I were saying, recently, that the doctors have to be weird. There may be more weird people in this world than we think. That doctor in the video seems like a “normal” unapologetic fella.

    Oh… I don’t think they’re all urologists, like him. I think there are endocrinologists and others. Probably plastic surgeons. One thing to know is it’s all experimental.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      That’s the weird thing about the whole “coalition”. They distract from real individuals, and they expect everyone to rally behind them, the “coalition” that is.

      By coalition, I’m referencing the entire lgbt armada.

  3. Marleen

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheryl_Chase_(activist)

    … In 2004, Chase and the ISNA persuaded the San Francisco Human Rights Commission to hold hearings on medical procedures for intersex infants. Chase has published commentaries in medical journals[16] and has criticized feminist writers, including Alice Walker and Katha Pollitt, for not putting intersexuality on the feminist agenda, despite their condemnation of female genital cutting in Africa and elsewhere.[17] ISNA was honored with the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission’s 2000 Felipa de Souza Human Rights Award.

    Chase’s activism was a factor in the urology and endocrinology disciplines’ reopening of their consideration of intersex conditions. Chase advocates a more complex view of intersexuality: in particular, that difficulties cannot be eliminated by early genital surgery. In August 2006, Pediatrics published a letter signed by 50 international experts, including Chase, titled “Consensus Statement on the Management of Intersex Disorders”. The statement, however, does not discourage surgical interventions, but did emphasize caution.

    In 2017, Chase took part in the launch of a report by Human Rights Watch and interACT on medically unnecessary surgeries on intersex children, “I Want to Be Like Nature Made Me”, based on interviews with intersex persons, families and physicians.[18] The report found that intersex medical interventions persist as default advice from doctors to parents, despite some change in some regions of the U.S. and claims of improved surgical techniques, resulting in an uneven situation where care differs and a lack of standards of care, but paradigms for care are still based on socio-cultural factors including expectations of “normality” and evidence in support of surgeries remains lacking. “Nearly every parent” in the study reported pressure for their children to undergo surgery, and many reported misinformation. The report calls for a ban on “surgical procedures that seek to alter the gonads, genitals, or internal sex organs of children with atypical sex characteristics too young to participate in the decision, when those procedures both carry a meaningful risk of harm and can be safely deferred.”[19]

    Here is someone (at her/his [now his] own site) I learned
    from — about intersex topics and his perspective.
    https://intersexday.org/en/born-perfect-2016/
    https://www.unfe.org/intersex-awareness/

    https://youtu.be/SkzTjD1ihoI
    Intersex: Disqualified For How I Was Born

  4. Marleen

    https://interactadvocates.org/sb201-2020/
    California’s Legislative Fight to Protect Intersex Children Pushed to 2020

    ……

    We anticipated it would be a difficult hearing. What we didn’t expect was that the testimony of our representatives, interACT Executive Director Kimberly Zieselman and board member Dr. Ilene Wong, would be so impactful that the Chair of the Committee, who was previously opposed, would ask to postpone the vote for a week so that he could further consider the issue.

    …..

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      See, the whole lgbt coalition is powerful, but not concerned with any person who actually needs help. That’s how you know the lgbt has more in common with a criminal organization than it does with equality.

      1. Marleen

        I had to double-check to see if this is/was the same thing. I think it’s something different… in terms of specific legislation. The general topic is the same.

        You might be right about the armada, but I’m not sure. I think what is more the situation is anti-gay-type people don’t learn, and doctors are a strong special interest.

        https://interactadvocates.org/intersex-legislation-california-blog/

        ….

        The resolution explains that the CA legislature “considers intersex children a part of the fabric of our state’s diversity to be celebrated rather than an aberration to be corrected” and directly quotes intersex people explaining their experiences with the medical community and their hopes for the future of intersex rights. InterACT is proud to have raised these important voices across California and beyond.

        …….

  5. Marleen

    https://interactadvocates.org/medical-students-for-intersex/
    Medical Student Pride Alliance at Stanford Hosts Fundraising Rally for interACT

    The doctors of the future have spoken: “We will not tolerate any course of action that harms our community.”

    Stanford University’s chapter of Medical Student Pride Alliance organized a fundraiser and rally following last week’s #WontBeErased movement. In a gesture to affirm intersex, transgender, and gender expansive people, the group gathered to raise funds for interACT and TGI Justice Project, a California-based organization supporting and centering incarcerated transgender and intersex women of color.

    This April I had the honor of speaking to Stanford’s Queer Health and Medicine cohort as an interACT Youth member. Young LGBTQIA+ doctors are quick to understand the human rights abuses faced by intersex people, and stunned to hear of medical practices, such as non-consensual, cosmetic infant clitoral reduction surgeries and phalloplasties, that many old-guard practitioners still won’t denounce.

    I spoke with young pre-meds and genetic counselors alike on the challenges faced legally, politically, and socially by intersex youth. Many left the session with new awareness and a commitment to change practice in their fields. And so they did.

    …..

      1. Marleen

        … quick to understand the human rights abuses faced by intersex people, and stunned to hear of medical practices, such as non-consensual, cosmetic infant clitoral reduction surgeries and phalloplasties, that many old-guard practitioners still won’t denounce.

  6. Marleen

    https://interactadvocates.org/defining-successful-outcomes-and-trade-offs/
    ….

    …. As acknowledged in the study description, “we’ve learned there is disagreement over what is ‘optimal’ care – or the best ways to achieve the best outcomes. We’re doing a study to learn more about what people think are ‘successful outcomes’ in CARD [conditions affecting reproductive development].”

    AIS-DSD SG and interACT are united in the common goal of improving care for those who are born with variations in sex characteristics and their families. It is why, after years of marginalization as research “subjects,” we adopted the philosophy of “nothing about us without us.” In keeping with this philosophy, we promote our inclusion in CBPR. This also enables us to provide input into protections for the vulnerable population with which we work. As the AIS-DSD SG policy explains:

    “The AIS-DSD Support Group participates only in studies in which there is an officially recognized community medical consultant from our group. This qualified individual would be involved from the project’s inception, and will provide input into the goals and design of the study in order to direct researchers towards outcomes that will further understanding of patient-centered care for DSD.”

    We prepared these guidelines in part because of researchers’ ongoing omission of intersex voices from projects designed to improve our own care. We believe strongly in our involvement as the ultimate experts on our own well-being. It is why we, and other intersex advocates, were forced to resign from participation in the NIH-funded Translational Research Network (our resignation letter is available here). We hoped initially that TRN, which denied participation to community medical advocates at the study-design stage, would allow meaningful input during the study itself. Instead, our concerns regarding the safety of intersex children were ignored and our support was falsely implied. TRN has never sought to make amends with our community for abusing our trust and wasting our time and energy. With the proposed study, already funded and led by a principal investigator from TRN, again failing to meet the most basic criteria for CBPR, it is clear that the lesson of inclusion has not been learned.

    The fundamental questions regarding successful outcomes and acceptable trade-offs in medical care must be crafted by those who live with the consequences of treatment. As a vulnerable health disparity group, we cannot allow ourselves to be bystanders in yet another study that neglects our priority for CBPR. It is for this reason that AIS-DSD SG and interACT decline participation in “Defining Successful Outcomes and Trade-Offs.” We must direct our precious resources toward supporting the efforts of researchers who thoughtfully include our voices from the outset.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      I wonder if “the doctors of the future” will continue to sedate children that are “diagnosed” with hyper active “disorders”?

      1. Marleen

        I hope not.

        I took my oldest son to a doctor when he was maybe two. I don’t remember the reason we had gone. Because my son stood on the chair (I mean, I’m guessing, but that’s all that happened), the doctor said he could diagnose him hyperactive and prescribe drugs. I’ve developed more of a capacity to be outraged, but I said no. Likely politely.

        1. Marleen

          The doctor might’ve been ready to offer drugs no matter what and based on absolutely nothing. Who knows. But my son did stand on a chair. My view of my son doing so was that it was completely healthy of him.

        1. Marleen

          The people in their personal lives can speak whatever esoteric things they want to. I was referring to the fact we generate birth certificates. We could leave sexual identification off completely. I’m not against no longer including that line or box. But if we are going to continue, there really should be at least three selections to choose from. That’s just facing reality. It’s doctors who have tried to insist there can be only two.

          Yet, we could go with four choices; one, not choosing any of the three. Again, FOR THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE. There ARE three in general. Our real world of sexuality is both binary and has a spectrum. Sorry to those who don’t want to face it, but spectrum is real. It’s roughly two percent of the population, but not fully two percent is observed at birth, and especially externally (we don’t look for ovaries for example).

          Choosing intersex isn’t just a choice… as choosing male or female isn’t just a choice; it’s not about feelings. You might as well say deciding between M/F is all about feelings or what feels good. (And, to the doctors and parents who just say who cares about the penis and pick girl, that’s sorta what they’re doing… but not for the benefit of the child, for their detriment, but the imagined ease of the parents).

          1. bottomlesscoffee007

            What’s the purpose of a birth certificate? Adding or removing boxes does nothing as long as we continue to ignore merit.

            1. Marleen

              So if you want to say this whole topic and every topic under the sun is about NOT having birth certificates because that’s opposed to merit, you should just say so rather than wasting everybody’s time.

                1. Marleen

                  All of a sudden the topic is merit? You’re so worked up about people being men or women, and social justice gobbledygook, that you refuse to think through that United States citizens are required to fill in a line or box for a birth certificate as to sex of each child born? If there is no option for the natural occurrence of a mixed-sex body (observable at birth), that leads to problems. If the parents are misinformed by a doctor who wants to be paid to do an unnecessary surgery… problem.

                  People can skip creating a birth certificate. Then they will have trouble being or proving they are a citizen, and so on and so forth. They might need to stay away from doctors or hospitals too for the birth. I don’t know how the personnel at each hospital would behave now. They’ve been worse in the past, forcing things on people. Anyway, with certificates, it’s better to acknowledge reality. We currently have birth certificates. Some people try to indicate neither (not M/F) in some way.

                  That is a third option, if they can pull it off. If a county were, rather, to officially include intersex, specifically, as an option or box (rather than “neither” or “no comment” or something like that) the parents who want to simply not name the sex even though it’s clear would not be correctly filling out their form if they chose ”intersex” — so if a parent like that said “none of the above”/”no comment” to those three options, that’s a fourth choice. Now this is math: 2+1=3, 3+1=4.

                  Forms are generated, not extant in nature. What is on them, to query for information, is decided ahead of time and typed up in the first place. Then counties take the forms and generate certificates. There are protocols for what is considered acceptable* when transferring answers from the filled-out forms to the county-generated certificates. If the county refuses to acknowledge the reality of any mixed-sex baby, the records and certificates are resultantly, incorrect.

                  * To speak theoretically, a civilization could decide they don’t care about creating birth certificates for anyone who is not male. Then, anything else for an answer wouldn’t be acceptable and would lead to either the application/form being thrown out or an inquiry being done to ascertain what the situation is.

                  Not all people in Rome were citizens. Now, we want to include all people as citizens, male, female, intersex. And we don’t have slave and free from birth, or even servitude from birth.

  7. Marleen

    bottomlesscoffee007
    Doctors of the future? Like Star Trek?

    NOVEMBER 4, 2019 AT 5:14 PM

    Of course the doctors of the sixties were demonstrating more of the industrial — humans can do anything — mentality. They could make things be what they want. There are still people like that; now they tend to be in the computer realms. But there are some also in medicine (or a hybrid of both).

      1. Marleen

        Some doctors might not be very different from a mechanized machine that handles machines (there’s probably a word for that kind of machine). Soul deficient. But that’s not what you asked. There are different kinds of surgeries, some simpler that others. Anyway, humans aren’t machines. I’ve found this isn’t something that can be debated with someone who doesn’t want to acknowledge it.

              1. Marleen

                Not?

                Some mechanics are better that others, too. I have an old car I keep to transport gardening materials. For half the time I’ve had it, the engine light has been on. The way they fix cars now is to use a computer to try and detect something. The people can’t usually figure anything it on their own. And if the computer can’t, too bad.

                  1. Marleen

                    The point is there are things doctors can’t figure out, and computer or mechanical engineers can’t figure out either, even if they might both believe or pretend they can create human beings or make them live forever or rejigger them or whatever. Sure, they can be told to put this here and do thus and so, but it’s not real… if they think about it. Someone can fool themselves that if they give a computer or a human-shaped machine a name, they have made a person who can “live” forever with enough parts to replace… but it’s not true. The machine can exist… it’s not the same as a human. Now, with some attempts at surgery, it’s not that the person receiving the surgery isn’t a person… but the attempted work isn’t a success just because it’s done. It depends on the desired result. If, say, there was a law saying do this surgery so you can get married…

                    Now, with a machine, it’s not like “sad” for the machine that it’s not a person. It’s just not a person — it’s still a machine. (It can be sad for the people around the delusional creator, who is thinking the thing is as good as human — and this means, too, that there’s something about humans he doesn’t see.) But for a person receiving bad care, it’s harmful or sad. It’s not about what other people think of it, whether or not the surgeon has convinced himself or whether outsiders judge the effort elegant or beautiful. A wax figure can be made to look elegant, or not. To use an extreme comparison, what good was it when doctors performed lobotomies? They got some kind of surface result. So what? And not only so what, they’d done harm. But some people might’ve been satisfied with the result; their wife was no longer angry, for instance.

                    1. bottomlesscoffee007

                      What about the doctors and other medical professionals that mandate that children should be put on medication in an attempt to alter their sex? What about the doctors and other medical professionals that perform abortions? What about the doctors and other medical professionals that commit medical malpractice?

                      I am not suggesting that all doctors and other medical professionals are all corrupt, but never forget that these people are people just the same.

                      A doctor, like an auto mechanic is supposed to run diagnostics and then attempt to remedy the problem.

                      The medical profession has become incredibly political and kisses the ring of social justice. To suggest that any population of doctors are beyond reproach or for that matter, want to right the wrongs of the past, merely emboldens the opportunity of corruption and misplaced trust.

                      A doctor is simply supposed to diagnose and repair, like an auto mechanic, but like auto mechanics, finding a good one is a life’s journey.

                      You referenced multiple “studies” and “reports” but none of these “experts” have their personal background published.

                      Doctors and other medical professionals are not sterile civil servants that simply carry out their duties.

                      To understand their goal, you must understand the person behind the goal and the motivation that encourages them to continue on their desired path.

                      I’m not trying to take away from anything you’ve referenced, all I’m saying is “take it with a grain of salt” and don’t buy into the “gospel” aspect of it.

                      The Nazis had doctors and the Japanese did as well. Both committed atrocities, all in the name of “science” and “research”. And those doctors remained employed because they followed the narrative of their leaders.

                    2. Marleen

                      You’ve gone off the proverbial deep end, rhetorically, this morning. But could it be you don’t know what I’m talking about when I refer to intersex people? I thought you did know what I was talking about because you expressed concern for them, and the sense that there wasn’t enough concern for them. It is true that there isn’t enough consideration for them.

                      Are you aware that what has been going on with them for a long time is they get their genitalia cut when they aren’t old enough to know what is happening? That is most of the ones who have visible mixed sex genitalia. Are you now telling me that young doctors who have found out this happens to babies shouldn’t exuberantly say, “We are not carrying that on any more!”

                      ?

                    3. Marleen

                      You don’t know how to hold a thought. You bring up all kinds of weird stuff about Nazi doctors and so on, as if that’s somehow compared to NOT cutting up baby genitals.

                      And now you’re acting like it doesn’t matter about cutting people or babies up because they’re babies. It ain’t your problem. But Nazis, don’t forget Nazis. Loop-ti-loop.

                    4. Marleen

                      Yesterday, you were holding the LGBT “armada” or community culpable for not caring about intersex people — supposedly not caring because there wasn’t enough movement legally toward reform/recognition. But, today, you want to throw everything I referenced (and to which you were responding) to the wind? Do you believe doctors can create females out of males or intersex babies in a routine manner, or not?
                      It can’t BOTH be
                      1) lgbt power that holds up specific reform (that is good) AND
                      2) the definition of said reform is corruption and perversion.

                    5. bottomlesscoffee007

                      I don’t understand how you can support a community that you don’t know the members personally. How do you put your trust and confidence in a group, over another group?

                    6. Marleen

                      I really don’t see the auto mechanic comparison answering the question. It’s again like saying no… but, wait, yes. People modify cars, and cars have no biology or humanity. A car is whatever you make of it. Doctors or quacks attempt modifying humans, but inserting fake boobs doesn’t a female adult make. Likewise, cutting off a penis on a baby doesn’t make a girl. (Nor would cutting off the penis and then creating an opening.)

                    7. bottomlesscoffee007

                      What I’m getting at is the doctor like the auto mechanic, can only go off of whatever information is currently available. And to suggest that a new generation of doctors would prove to be more virtuous than past generations, is akin to hysteria, since people are people, regardless of whether or not they are a doctor or an auto mechanic.

                      If people want to call their own babies, theybys, that’s on them, and I do not have to respect their wishes, just as I cannot tell anyone what they can or cannot call me.

                      You brought up the intersex thing, I merely commented that it’s funny how the lgbt armada conveniently ignores the people who were “born this way” all the while wanting to mimick their situation. As an example of how corrupt the entire lgbt movement actually is.

                      I have no idea why you went off on the deep end and started copying and pasting different excepts and websites about intersex people.

                    8. Marleen

                      It’s very convenient to just write off improvements and call it hysteria after you went flippy-floppy on the subject matter of if people are properly sexed and gendered. Also, you don’t recognize you’re contradicting yourself as well as real information and obvious logic. The experts aren’t experts, except out of the other side of your mouth or when you decide it’s easier to be lazy. Apparently, all you wanted to do is rag on LGBT people; forget what the heck is happening to real kids… even babies.

                      You used the word “theybies” (no one here is saying you have to use the word), I looked up the topic because you gave no reference or context (except for your frequent random head-cut-off chicken soup). The article I found on it used the word transsexual or transgender (which is not attributed to the parents in the story but is brought up by the author of the article), which I think is inappropriate for a baby — especially when intersex babies aren’t mentioned at all. Whatever my reason for sharing that intersex babies aren’t mentioned, you jumped at the chance to blame gay people. Do you not think there is responsibility to consider the repercussions?

                      I, myself, don’t care if gay coalitions are for or against, when I decide what I think. That doesn’t sway me this way or that way. I’m against creating transsexual babies, so there’s that. But when I reference what is happening in the law, guess what? I have to reference real places with real laws and votes. And I referenced a person who was sexually cut when she was a baby and a man who was put on hormones to look female throughout life, that is from childhood when he wasn’t making the decisions, because of really being intersex but with a very small penis. When you talk about people and their babies and sexual identification, guess what? That brings up birth certificates (a reality in our world) and the forms that are devised and then filled out in answer.

                      https://bottomlesscoffee007.com/2019/11/03/if-sex-is-different-than-gender/#comment-15701

                      Unless all you’re really saying is you’re upset things aren’t easy and you’d therefore like to make fun of somebody.

                    9. Marleen

                      I am 100% against imposing transsexualism (and the use of sexual surgery) or even impairment (via surgery or cutting) on babies and kids. And I am 100% in favor of accurate records via certificates as long as we have certificates and citizenship. I know there are Christians who think they get to call everyone a liar. But it’s not so.

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