Beer Goggles, Steve and I Discuss Abortion: TidePodcast Epic-Sode 48

Steve and BC007 discuss abortion.

U.S. Has The Worst Rate Of Maternal Deaths In The Developed World, NINA MARTIN, PROPUBLICA, RENEE MONTAGNE, NPR

“Arafat had said that the womb of the Palestinian woman was a “biological weapon,” which he could use to create Palestine state by crowding people into the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.” ― Yasser Arafat

Jewish and Palestinian Women Wage “War of the Cradles” in Israel, SALLE DE PRESSE, MATHIEU-ROBERT SAUVÉ

Steve gave a Shout-Out to Heather from over @ Hopelessly Heather for correcting him on his spelling of Nickelback, not Nickleback.

I gave a Shout-Out to Monaminga, the Bi-Lingual Beauty, head on over, check her out and let her know BottomlessCoffee007 sent ya!!!


33 thoughts on “Beer Goggles, Steve and I Discuss Abortion: TidePodcast Epic-Sode 48

      1. hawk2017

        The government removed the only Light defining good and evil from our education institutions, this removed patriotism, this removed responsibility, this removed morals, this gave birth to abortion, this destroyed the Law, this corrupted justice. This is domino effect. We are a nation of crime and murder where there is no reprocussion. The Evil is too deep now. This is what this generation wants. They know better, but do not care as long it does not mess with their money. Just my opinion. :))

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Its how lands and people have been conquered since the beginning of time. If we are bred out, its our own fault.

      1. In Italy they’re trying to guilt women into
        having babies. A government campaign
        that has kind of backfired. Now that you
        can enjoy the entree, even the main course
        without paying the bill (as in, bambinos).
        With a tip, they’ll even throw in dessert.

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          It’s a sign of an affluent people, David. We think we’ve risen to a certain status, when in fact, evil is at our doorstep. One misstep and everything is gone!

  1. Steve: Thanks for the shout out, even though it was backhanded…and I don’t believe that you originally intended to misspell Nickelback. Side note: I love hearing all your “hmms”, “huhs” and “that’s interestings” when you clearly disagree with whatever BC has said. Also, you were airborne? So was my hubs. 🙂

    Before I throw in my pennies, I want you both to know that I (very surprisingly) laughed out loud a lot during this one – two dudes discussing abortion, birth, conception, contraception and pregnancy is hilarious, particularly when you both are a little uncertain of the particulars.

    Abortions and child support: the two aren’t connected and shouldn’t be. Your idea, if implemented, would likely have the opposite effect than what you claim you ultimately want and cause MORE abortions because the dude would “legally” be able to pull financial support for a life he didn’t want. It’s a quasi reverse abortion. Did you think that idea through?

    For the record, I am pro choice. I have not and will not judge someone else’s decision for their own body. I have known and fully supported several women who have had abortions – one as a result of rape, one as a medical decision (she would have likely died if she carried the baby to term), and several as young teenagers not wanting to go the teenage mom route. A couple have regretted their decisions later, but most haven’t…and all agonized while coming to their own decisions. None celebrated the abortions or were praised for having them. All were somber, difficult, and private matters.

    Personally, I’m not sure *I* could ever follow through with an abortion. I’ve been pregnant twice (at 19 and 21), delivered both naturally and have never regretted my decision to have them. It also was not easy. My decisions were right for me, but I have no illusions that my decisions are right for anyone else.

    By the same token, I want to retain the freedom to *decide* whether or not abortion is the right choice for me.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Heather, first, thank you so very much for taking the time to listen, hopefully you were entertained. Steve and I both agree that we are not subject matter experts, with having said that I think it is very important for everyone to participate. The more that are pushed away from discussing anything, the further we move from understanding one another.

      You could be right about the child support, then again, maybe I am right. Regardless, the more idea we can toss back and forth, the more thorough the understanding becomes and the better everything becomes. If more people are part of the conversation, the more people will feel as if they are legitimately part of the solution as well.

      I hear ya about the pro-choice, like I said, if that’s what your heart is set on doing, handle your business yourself. Yeah, I could be totally off base about how emotionally scarring or not it is for both men and women, then again, maybe not. Who really knows?

      A question Heather, would you date or marry a man who told you he convinced his previous lover to get an abortion? If it is personal for a woman, what is it then for a man?

      I appreciate your laughter Heather, hopefully this means that it wasn’t a painful process for you to listen. Did your husband listen along with you? I wonder what his take on us was?

      Maybe we made asses of ourselves, maybe not. Like I said, the more that participate openly and honestly, the better off we all truly are. Is it enjoyable to listen to two friends constantly disagree? Can you understand our desire to simply communicate frankly?

      1. Anonymous

        After thinking on this, I think a man has the ability to disengage from a child’s life whenever they want. I have a friend whose dad “went out for smokes” one day and stayed gone for a decade offering no support whatsoever. The idea that there would be a law allowing what is already legal is just silly. I do think a man deserves to have his opinions heard when his partner becomes pregnant, but maybe this dialogue starts before the pregnancy gets a chance to happen, i.e.- Before we have sex, what are you’re thoughts on pregnancy? -steve

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          I guess that’s always the possibility, of people taking advantage of a law. Perhaps you are right, then again, how is this any different that my thought that the majority of abortions are due to convenience and vanity? Like I said, I don’t know, at the same time, why not discuss all options, viable or not, common sense or not. I just don’t understand, it seems the more this goes on, the man is basically viewed as the paycheck/sperm donor. If women knew that a man could simply get up and walk out, maybe they would have less sex, maybe abortions would skyrocket. Who knows. Up until now though, the man has been basically kept out of the conversation, except when it comes to child support and alimony.

          A question, how do you think a woman would take it, if her boyfriend/fiance’ confessed to her that previously, he had convinced his prior lovers to have an abortion? I know we discussed this on the podcast, from the man’s perspective, but what if the conversation were flipped? Do you think the majority of women out there would be fine knowing that?

          I agree wholeheartedly that this needs to be a completely open discussion.

          Yeah, for sure, it could be in conjunction with ensuring consent was given, prior to coitus.

          1. Anonymous

            First off, the assertion that most abortions are a matter of convenience seems less like a fact based product of critical thinking and more a fictional vignette designed to elicit an emotionally intuitive response. I don’t know why women get abortions, but what I do know is that there is a myriad of reasons and I’m sure varying levels of convenience that come in to play. The popular narrative that we are play out in tv and in movies is of a pretty young woman being permiscuous, getting pregnant and then terminating it so as to not impede her future. I have no doubt that this scenario is true on an anecdotal level, but I’m not sure how many women terminate pregnancies out of sheer convenience alone. Admittedly, this is a powerful argument about the lack of accountability in our culture and promote s a powerful emotional response. Without looking at actual data, if it does exist, letting your perception of a reality that may or may not exist form your outlook is an irresponsible way to form an opinion.
            Let’s unpack where men are in this equation. Men can choose to wear a condom or not have sex. Men can choose to address concerns regarding pregnancy and thoughts on abortion before during and after sex. Men can develop a level of trust in their partner that would identify commensurate feelings and thoughts on accidental reproduction. If a man finds himself solely on a sperm donor/paycheck level, I would argue he is accountable for putting himself in that position.
            Second off, everything that the woman puts in her body effects the pregnancy, i.e-drugs, alcohol, nicotine, hormones, nutrition, stress, various medicines etc. Can all affect the pregnancy in some way. Coversely, the pregnancy has an immediate physical affect on the woman that can be uncomfortable at best and life threatening at worst. If a woman can not or does not do everything in her power to ensure a healthy pregnancy this can adversely affect the pregnancy. What all this leads me to believe is that it is the woman’s body, and the pregnancy has a direct impact on her physically, mentally and emotionally. As a man, no matter how anti abortion i may be, it is the woman who is ultimately responsible for carrying the child to term or not.
            Finally, let’s talk about God in all this. Did God give us free will? Because if this is all part of his plan and he knows our souls before we were born, than we don’t have free will at all and are merely acting out a script he has written. If we do have free will, than there is no plan for us and not even God knows what can happen next. If God wants all children to be born, why are there so many miscarriages? If all life is precious, why do we execute innocent people on death row?
            There is a lot here and it is a heavy subject. Let’s be careful where we cast our judgement. If a woman or man who have chosen to terminate a pregnancy are mostly bankrupt to you, than stop talking to everyone’s you know, because statistically someone you know may be in that camp. If a person I cared for revealed that they had done something that I found reprehensible, I hope I would treat them with kindness and respect. Unless they were wearing aa Nickel back t shirt.

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              Argh, damn NicleB!!!!

              You bring up very valid points, and that is why I believe this conversation is no where near ad nauseam, as probably most would disagree, due the nature of discomfort it brings about.

              Where does God fit into all of this? He did grant all of us free will and thats why it is on all of us (not in a collective sense) but as individuals to do as we each see and believe and know fit. This is such a nuanced issue, that I think we are barely even scratching the surface. So, we need to keep on digging.

              Should “we” establish some rigid criteria? No, if history has shown us anything is that rigid criteria often has the opposite of the desired effect.

              I agree, we should not simply cast stones, at the same time, if we cannot speak openly about this, if we are afraid to be offended or we are afraid to offend, then what is the sense in talking about anything for that matter?

              You hit the nail on the head, none of us know how we will react until we are faced with it. I may eat my words one day, I hope I will be able to stand by my convictions, but I will truly never know until I am faced with that decision.

              Death Row, gosh, Ive never thought about that as far as the connection between the two. I have heard of it being compared though. I don’t know if the two intersect really. I guess maybe the counter to that would be the purpose of wars and other stuff. I really don’t know. I’ll have to get back to you on that, haven’t really ever devoted that much brain power to it. I would assume, that there are more abortions in a day or a few days, than there have ever been carried out death senate executions in America.

            2. bottomlesscoffee007

              I will say concerning death sentences that actually lead to executions are more thoroughly vetted than abortions.

          2. “…it seems the more this goes on, the man is basically viewed as the paycheck/sperm donor.”

            And the flip side to that is that women are viewed as incubators – that an unborn fetus has more rights over the woman’s body than she does. Understandably, there’s a giant divide between the two sides. Women want the ability to control what happens with their own bodies. Their partners are absolutely allowed to provide input and opinions but, in the end, it should be decided by the woman who has to make the sacrifice…whichever way she decides.

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              Then why can’t the man decide if he wants to support that child? That seems either convenient or extremely one-sided at best that the woman holds all the cards between abortion or making the man pay for the next 18-21 years.

              1. Because it would force the woman to sacrifice her own body and time. It’s not equal. You’re also assuming there are only two viable options, which is also incorrect. Women have more choices than just abortion or being a mother.

                  1. Abortion, adoption, abandonment, or keeping the child. Choosing to keep the child can take a lot of forms: opting to become a traditional family, becoming a single parent (mother or father with OR without physical/emotional/financial involvement from the other parent), or allowing another family member to raise the child…just to name a few.

                    There’s always surrogacy too, a semi-related, but not completely on-topic, choice.

                    I think what you’re really asking is when does the man get to make the decision that is abided by (i.e., when does he get to dictate what will happen). Well, the proper answer is never…because it’s not his body. He can provide input, opinions, threats, abuse and whatever else he wants in an effort to get his point across that the fetus is the most important thing in the world to him but, ultimately, the woman gets to decide what she will or won’t do with her own body.

                    1. bottomlesscoffee007

                      So, the only way to be free for a man is to simply abstain or seek out a woman who has had a hysterectomy?

                      I can support that.

                      The financial status doesn’t stop people from signing for loans or credit, so I don’t see how that is a logical argument.

                    2. Free? I’m confused by your comment. Do you mean for a man to be absolutely certain that intercourse will not result in a pregnancy? There are many ways to prevent pregnancy aside from abstinence and hysterectomies.

                      Where did I make any argument citing financial status? Again, I’m confused.

                    3. bottomlesscoffee007

                      So the woman doesn’t want the baby, she’s cool to abort it. The guy is along for the ride whether he wants it or not? How is that fair?

      2. “… would you date or marry a man who told you he convinced his previous lover to get an abortion?”

        I’d need to know more information. If it was an open discussion between the two of them and they arrived at that decision as being best for them as a couple at that time, it’s not for me to judge. On the other hand, if he unilaterally decided and commanded what should be done for his own personal reasons, I’d have a problem with that. To me, a man deciding what will happen with a pregnancy, whether it’s keeping it or aborting it, without input from their partner is inexcusable. I’d assume that was the tip of the iceberg for a controlling, and potentially abusive, personality and I’d get out ASAP.

        “If it is personal for a woman, what is it then for a man?”

        I think it largely depends on how, and by whom, the woman wound up pregnant in the first place. I think some men care a great deal, while others don’t.

        “Did your husband listen along with you?”


        “Is it enjoyable to listen to two friends constantly disagree?”

        No, but in this specific instance, your podcasts, it’s expected and would be boring to listen to if it was just two dudes ranting and raving over major issues with the same point of view.

        “Can you understand our desire to simply communicate frankly?”

        Yup. That’s why I listen.

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          Heather, Heather, Heather, when oh when will you jump on the TidePodcast? You leave such great comments, I would love to hear you more.

    2. Anonymous

      Heather, I appreciate you not calling too much attention to my virtue signaling (and by that I mean my backhanded Nickel back remark, not my stance on women’s reproductive rights), and I thank you for taking the time to listen to coffee and I have our discussions. I am actually still airborne, and I’m thankful for that every da y, even though I can feel the results of all my jumps every morning when I wake up. My question would be, why is it funny to hear us talk about this? Is it because we are funny individuals? Or simply because we are men talking about women’s issues? Either way I’m glad you are entertained, I would just hope it’s the former and not the latter. I honestly believe that men should be a bigger part in this conversation, and get spun up on the entire reproductive process, not just the fun part. The fact that ignorant individuals get to use their quasi religious beliefs to help punt a political football that affects women across the country is insane to me. Thanks again for listening and as always thanks for contributing your point of view. -Steve

      1. “I am actually still airborne, and I’m thankful for that every da y, even though I can feel the results of all my jumps every morning when I wake up.”

        So does the hubs – that’s actually why he got out after 11 years.

        “…why is it funny to hear us talk about this? Is it because we are funny individuals? Or simply because we are men talking about women’s issues?”

        Funny because it’s a very serious issue, no matter what your personal stance is, and it was obvious at times that you both waded into territory that neither of you were knowledgeable about or comfortable with. By the end, it was fairly clear that you had done some research (or been educated) on some topics and that BC was joining the convo from a purely emotional point of view without performing/obtaining much, if any, research/education. I was glad to hear him admit as much as it provided a lot of clarity for why he believes what he does and, frankly, I think it was brave of him to let it publicly all hang out.

        “I honestly believe that men should be a bigger part in this conversation, and get spun up on the entire reproductive process, not just the fun part. The fact that ignorant individuals get to use their quasi religious beliefs to help punt a political football that affects women across the country is insane to me.”

        I couldn’t agree more.

        1. Anonymous

          You are hereby reignited to talk with us as long as you publicly state that you have bad taste in music. Or you could just quietly agree that liking NQL back is equAl to thinking that the olive garden has really great authentic Italian food. -Steve

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