Evolution is a False Escape

When it comes to creation versus evolution, the split is very simple. If you believe in creation then you realize that you will be judged. If you believe in evolution, then you attempt to abscond from judgement. Day in and day out, temptation and sin are all around us. I have sometimes wished that when it was my time to pass, that I would simply go into the ground. I am afraid of the sin that I have done and the sin that I will do. From lust and lying to greed and sloth, I have plenty to answer for once my judgement comes. If the theory of evolution is true, then why would we need to be good to one another? If evolution is true, then we are as low as the beasts of the earth.

We strive to be clean, we strive to be good, why? Because we know that in our hearts, we will eventually answer for what we have done. The idea of evolution provides a sense of escape from judgement. Evolution is just another feel good idea. If evolution were correct, then why are there still animals on earth?

177 thoughts on “Evolution is a False Escape

  1. Damnit I’d written out a huge long comment and lost it! I was trying to present a rebuttal in favour of evolution and it devolved!
    I’m a believer in evolution. Look how humans alone have evolved over the years. Right from the beginning, God created man then realised he could do better and created woman!!
    Even if you just go back 1-200 years, people are taller, living longer etc.
    Animals and birds have also evolved. Black Squirrels evolved as a direct result of industrial changes to their ha Italy’s in and around cities. That was a huge and very fast change. Yes they don’t have universities and libraries (to my knowledge!) but they have nuts and that keeps them happy – read that any way you will!
    I also believe in God and an afterlife. I do think bible stories, particularly the Old Testament are man’s interpretation of events and I’m not so certain there isn’t a great deal of deliberate misinterpretation or misrepresentation there. This is a really interesting debate though 😊

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Thanks for the comment and taking the time. You present an interesting outlook. But the one thought that was running through my head while reading your comment was: are you speaking of evolution or adaptation? I am not an expert in this field but this is what I believe. Your remark at the beginning make me smirk, “God realized he could do better so he created woman”! I like it Britchy.

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          I think that’s where things get convoluted. I think of evolution as man made, whereas I think of adaptation as the free will that God gave us to chose whether or not to persist on and face the challenges that come our way. You’re a witty and sharp person Britchy, you bring up very thought provoking arguments. Thank you. Back to you girl.

          1. So we just need to set our parameters for debate!
            Here’s a thought – how about collaborating on a series of debates on both our blogs? If we try it and it works out we could keep
            it to a set schedule, weekly, bi weekly, monthly or whatever it wouldn’t take over our own posting ideas. We can choose a subject, define our interpretation and invite followers to take part.. I think it could be fun!

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              I’m down if you are. To be honest I have no idea of what that looks like though. But you’ve been good to me so I trust you on this. I just might need some extra guidance.

                1. I’m sure it would be very interesting as well as challenging. I’ve read some people’s comments on different blogs and Facebook and they can get pretty nasty.

                  1. bottomlesscoffee007

                    True, but that’s to be expected when speaking in public. They have a right to voice their opinion whether it is nice or not. Just as I have a right to voice mine. A mutual respect of freedom if you will. Plus, nothing really bothers me, I had a hard time to not laugh out loud when I received those comments. Keyboard warriors pose no threat, just laughter from their obvious frustrations. That’s why they would rather slander than actually discuss something.

                    1. bottomlesscoffee007

                      Oh man britchy, you know the rules about science. We need white lab coats and government funding if we are to carry that out. We could be labeled heretics!!!!! The church, the government and the legitimate “scientists” would have us barred from practicing without a license!!!

              1. bottomlesscoffee007

                Yeah, for sure. I just don’t know how to go by it exactly. Professor Coyne who’s blog is “why evolution is true” was the person who actually published my post and cited my post and blog. I had no idea who he was when I offered a counter to his argument, but apparently it bothered him enough that he wrote about it the following day. That so far is my experience with a debate. If you google “evolution is a false escape” it should be the first hit. The article that he wrote was titled something along the lines of “Creationists makes the dumbest argument against evolution ever” or something similar to that.

                He blocked me from commenting on that post and the one from the day prior. Regardless, there is no such thing as bad publicity, and my traffic has really gone up since then. I am still receiving readers from his blog over on my page. This has been absolutely wonderful.

                My goal was to never say that I am right or wrong, but instead to facilitate open and honest conversation, a kind of “what about this” discussion forum, with zero censorship.

                  1. bottomlesscoffee007

                    We are all guilt of hypocrisy. We do the same that they do. It’s just easier to see it when others do it. I am guilty of the same.

  2. 🙂 There are those people who believe in Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution.

    Christians on the other hand, do not adhere to the belief of evolution.

    Maybe, the entire educational system needs to be restructured since we are taught evolution in schools.

    Another very controversial topic.

    I am surprised to see that your blog is not overflowing with comments.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Ha, maybe one day, but we will see. That’s the problem with consensus. In medieval times to say that the earth was round was heresy and punished with death. Today to refute science is rewarded with masses of people hissing at you for believing in God. Same principle different times, ultimately same outcome. If you speak your mind you could lose your job and your family will suffer.

  3. bottomlesscoffee007

    Thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment. This means the world to me that finally people I don’t know are reading this!!!!

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Damn man, you’re too much. I cannot express the gratitude I have for you reading so much. Honestly from the bottom of my heart thank you.

  4. Pingback: A creationist makes the dumbest criticism of evolution ever « Why Evolution Is True

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Funny, how my follow up comments were all censored yesterday and today as well. I was asking a question, instead of discussion and conversation, the grammar police jumped all over my misspelling. I get the feeling that you really don’t like to discuss hotly contested topics.

      Christianity isn’t the only faith that rebukes evolution, Islam rebukes evolution as well. If I am mistaken then please “educate” me or “change my mind”.

      Anyhow, I don’t see this going anywhere, too bad. I encourage those who doubt to look for themselves, instead of giving into peer pressure and simply toeing the line that has been force fed to us.

      Personal attacks are the first sign of a weak argument. Using big words with more than two syllables to exhibit your intelligence only shows your lack of knowledge.

      1. busterggi

        “I encourage those who doubt to look for themselves, instead of giving into peer pressure and simply toeing the line that has been force fed to us.”

        Not that’s how folks become atheists!

      2. Serendipitydawg

        You mean like “syllables” ?

        Your entire premise says nothing, other than I believe X, therefore you are wrong.

        Let’s have some evidence.

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          Sure, where’s the evidence? Has anyone ever personally witnessed evolution or do people just repeat what they were told? Slander my faith all you want. But have you witnessed evolution first hand?

          1. Serendipitydawg

            I don’t believe I slandered your faith, you are free to believe whatever you like.

            Speaking of repeating what you are told… did you witness the resurrection?

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              I did not, however; women witnessed it. When Jesus resurrected it was witnessed by women. Women then were not allowed to speak in court or legal matters. They were not considered on the same level as men. If their statement was recorded when no other woman’s statement was recorded, how would that be possible?

              1. Serendipitydawg

                You know what? I regret even engaging with you, it is a pointless waste of time and a result of excessive flippancy on my part. Enjoy your existence, don’t do anything to damn yourself.

                1. bottomlesscoffee007

                  Wow, no dialogue, no counter. Thanks for your comments earlier. Unfortunately you either believe in science or you believe in God. I understand your slander upon my existence. Again, why do you believe what you believe? Are you setting out to prove me wrong or point out why you believe what you believe? It’s a simple question, yet the answers seem to be far and few between.

                  You asked if I witnessed the resurrection of Christ. I answered your question. Why can’t you answer my question concerning evolution?

                1. bottomlesscoffee007

                  I appreciate your insight. Although how can you refer to it as fiction? Where is your proof of evolution? What is your proof that evolution is fact? People always attempt to quote the Bible, when in fact they are attempting to quote God.

                  What or where is the absolute proof of evolution?

                  I have faith in God and I know that science is part of the proof of his existence.

                  My answers may never be enough to satisfy. Simply because it is my faith.

                  1. busterggi

                    Well I’ve got a BA in biology and have studied genetics – I was also raised a Catholic.

                    Guess which won because it had evidence.

                    1. bottomlesscoffee007

                      So you were looking for a winner and somehow God is blamed for Catholicism? What was the criteria that defined the evolution that you witnessed?

                    2. busterggi

                      Evidence, lots & lots of evidence. What evidence have you for god other than wishful thinking?

                    3. bottomlesscoffee007

                      Again, wishful thinking is brought up. What is your evidence for evolution vs God?

                    4. busterggi

                      I’m sorry but I can’t rehash years of study and lab work in a post – you’ll have to spend a few years doing the work yourself if you want to know.

                      I know that I spent years in Catechism class and all I learned was that if you asked questions you got hit with a yardstick so shut up and repat what you’re told.

                    5. bottomlesscoffee007

                      Exactly, when it comes to science and religion, questions are not allowed. I do appreciate your comments and participation. Thank you.

                    6. busterggi

                      If you think questions aren’t allowed in science then you haven’tspent time studying any. Progress only comes from questions.

                    7. bottomlesscoffee007

                      Yeah, and I shouldn’t blame science for the people that use it to rule over people. The same is true of religion. Questions of science whether climate change or evolution will often cause calamity, just as humans questioning religion.

                    8. busterggi

                      Hardly, the US is a soft theocracy run by Christians, go ahead try to run as anything else – you’ll lose automatically in most of the country.

                    9. bottomlesscoffee007

                      If the U.S. is a theocracy, then why are atheists and other faiths safer here than anywhere else?

                    10. busterggi

                      Seriously? You’ve never heard of the middle east I take it.

                      You prolly don’t even consider the Vatican to be a theocracy.

                    11. bottomlesscoffee007

                      It’s funny how you assume that I’ve never practiced science though. It’s a stereotype that I am used to at this point.

                    12. busterggi

                      So what scientific back ground have you? You haven’t demonstrated even a basic understanding any yet.

                    13. bottomlesscoffee007

                      What is your scientific background. I would think that our conversation is somewhat scientific as a study. What qualifies as science in your mind? Lab coats and financing?

                    14. busterggi

                      Okay, I gave you some of my background and all you’ve given me is sea-lioning.

                      goodbye.

                    15. bottomlesscoffee007

                      You gave me none of your background, you stated something about not being able to post everything you’ve done to prove science.

                    16. bottomlesscoffee007

                      Just look at the comments section to see what some people say when you question science.

                    17. bottomlesscoffee007

                      I guess the question then is where does your faith belong science or God? Perhaps both, perhaps neither maybe one over the other.

                    18. bottomlesscoffee007

                      How have humans remained at the top of the food chain even though we are not the fastest or strongest? Why do humans have free will over all of the animals on earth? Why are humans the only beings in the universe that exercise free will? We have free will because we must choose and decide for ourselves.

                    19. busterggi

                      First of all if you think humans are at the top of the food chain I advise you to discuss the issue barehanded with a grizzy bear, tiger, great white shark or a mosquito. We have what we have because we used intelligence to invent it, not because of diving assistance.

                      Same thing for dominion over all animals – eat some food contaminated with any one of hundreds of pathogens and discuss it with them between your vomiting and diarrhea.

                      Humans are the only animals with free will? Clearly you’ve never tried calling a cat – it’ll answer you only if it wants to, you can’t will it to come to you and praying for it to won’t work either.

                    20. bottomlesscoffee007

                      Again, what is your interpretation of these topics? Clearly you have your stance. Top of the food chain refers to, there is not an animal out there that hasn’t been killed and eaten by man. Man commands the animals, they may need coercion, but what animal drives or commands us?

                    21. busterggi

                      So you think the ability to bully is somehow divine? So if I beat the crap out of you then I’m closer to god than you, correct?

                    22. bottomlesscoffee007

                      Where did you get that from? Good luck beating the crap out of me. Let’s not go to threats please.

                2. It’s fiction to you because in your mind only seeing is believing. Well, I didn’t see when I was conceived in my mother’s womb, but here I am. Did you see yourself conceived? And speaking of seeing the ressurrection, it doesn’t matter that anyone saw it or not. It still happened. One day we will all know the truth when Jesus comes back again. And if that isn’t true either, than I have nothing to lose by believeing. But because it is true, you have everything to lose by not believing. However, God gives us the choice to believe or not to believe. He didn’t have to, but He did. So, believe what you want because what you believe doesn’t stop me from believing the Truth.

          2. I have!

            We did this experiment with bacteria and antibiotics in my undergraduate Microbiology course. Over a few weeks the genetics of the bacteria subtly changed such that the population evolved resistance to the antibiotic.It was amazing!

            I also watched as plants, weed plants, have evolved resistance to herbicides like glyphosate.

            And I saw this experiment that was done by my ecology professor where the color of these fish completely changed, became much more vibrant, and adopted patterns after several generations due to sexual selection when predators were removed from their environment. The patterns and colors would get more intricate as more generations occurred.

            These were all genetic changes that were heritable to many generations, a.k.a. evolution.

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              Evolution vs adaptation. Did they stop evolving once a certain point was reached? Or do the continue to evolve as you say? If that’s part of their biological makeup, where did they start out to get to where they are now?

              How can they prove that was not already part of their makeup? Interesting aspect though.

              Thank you so much for a valid comment. I appreciate your insight.

              We may disagree, but I think agreeing is neither here nor there.

  5. nicky

    If you’re only striving to be a good person because some post mortem judgement is awaiting you, there is something seriously wrong with your social instincts.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Why do you say that? What is your motivation to be good? What are the tenants of good behavior?

  6. Your thesis is belied by the large numbers of Christian believers who, while holding to the notion that they will be judged, nonetheless accept that evolution is, more or less, an accurate theory.

    If, as you contend, those who hold evolution to be fact do so in an attempt to escape judgement, it would certainly be an oddity for such a person to hold fast to the opposite. Yet this is not an oddity. It’s not really even very uncommon.

    Polls routinely show that, while the number continues to grow in the US, the % of atheists in the population is less than 5%. Yet those same polls show that acceptance of evolution, in some form, in the US is around 45% (from recollection here so I might be off). I think the most current polls put the number of “nones”, i.e. people who hold to no particular religion) around 17%, and this includes the atheists. That leaves about 28% of the population considering themselves religious and still holding to evolution (in some form). That means that the majority of people who agree that evolution is a pretty accurate conclusion aren’t trying to escape judgement, in fact they embrace the belief that they will be judged.

    This is all true regardless of whether evolution is actually a thing or if it’s all made up BS.

    So your thesis is incorrect.

    Now, I’m assuming that you’re a Christian here, so I may be off base, but:

    I am afraid of the sin that I have done and the sin that I will do. From lust and lying to greed and sloth, I have plenty to answer for once my judgement comes.

    Why? Isn’t the only question that matters the one about whether or not you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Isn’t the whole premise of Christianity that no matter how bad a sinner you are, belief gets you forgiven?

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Yes, Jesus forgives. The acceptance of evolution as fact or just acceptance since it is the only notion of life taught in public school.

      Christianity and Christians are two separate populations that tend to intersect from time to time. God is often blamed for the actions of humans. Consensus as history has taught us is more often than not wrong. What makes us think that we know all of the answers now?

      Again, this is what I set out for honest and open discussion. Thank you for taking the time to comment so thoughtfully and clearly.

    2. busterggi

      “Isn’t the whole premise of Christianity that no matter how bad a sinner you are, belief gets you forgiven?”

      Careful amigo, you’re opening up the whole faith vs works argument that Christianity has been fighting since day one and still hasn’t figured out.

      1. bottomlesscoffee007

        I think it’s a worthwhile discussion. And an interesting one, evolution is a foundation as is faith.

      2. bottomlesscoffee007

        I understand that not everyone shares my faith. I have a simple belief in God and my faith emboldens and solidifies that. It may not make sense or be palatable. But does that mean that I cannot question evolution? Does it also mean that people cannot question the Bible or any faith? I believe questions are good, regardless of how they may come across.

        Regardless of what anyone believes, they must believe it for themselves.

    3. bottomlesscoffee007

      I understand that not everyone shares my faith. I have a simple belief in God and my faith emboldens and solidifies that. It may not make sense or be palatable. But does that mean that I cannot question evolution? Does it also mean that people cannot question the Bible or any faith? I believe questions are good, regardless of how they may come across.

      Regardless of what anyone believes, they must believe it for themselves.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Honestly, your argument seems to be to make fun of me and my faith. Say that I don’t understand or practice science. Finally you attempt to point out that my stance is laughable. I’m not attempting to win this discussion, however; I think you are. I am happy to continue our conversation. But is it in the mud at this point.

  7. Evolution is true is a fact statement based on multiple lines of corroborating evidence.

    Belief in evolution gives one a perceived escape from final judgement is an opinion statement and has no bearing on whether evolution is true or not.

    I disagree with your opinion. I accept evolution as true based on the evidence but I don’t think that absolves me from doing my best to increase well being and decrease harm generally. I am “judged” by me, and my fellow humans. And the fact (I’m afraid that you’ll have to take my word for it) will go out of my way to return a lost wallet or help another human being generally should be sufficient counter to your opinion.

    The simple fact is there are countless non theists who don’t fear judgment and do good. Our acceptance of evolution (and the acceptance of same by countless theists) has nothing to do with avoiding our own sense of personal responsibility.

    You can be good without God. And you can be bad with God (working under the assumption that God forgives all).

    As for your final query about the existence of other animals- it seems like maybe you don’t believe in something you don’t fully understand?

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Awesome comment. That is why I started this conversation. I disagree with your points, however; agreeing or disagreeing is not the point. The two, being science and faith seem to cause a lot of commotion.

      Perhaps we are beginning to scratch the surface and maybe we are not. People process things differently, no matter the information. With that being said, are we as simple as evolution or faith? Based on the comments I received today, it would seem that the majority of people would rather disparage, than actually discuss something without trying to win.

      Perhaps I don’t understand as you stated, but maybe I do, who knows? Good acts have a history and that history comes from Christ. We choose and decide based on good versus bad, where did that thought process originate, if not from our ancestors and their experiences?

      Again, thank you for taking the time to read, comment thoughtfully and participate.

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  9. Albert Habichdobinger

    So you saying that anybody. who accepts evolution, is without morals, bad and like a beast. That is not only wrong, it is also not very nice.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      No, I am not saying that. But what does the theory of evolution state? If evolution is true, what did we originate from?

      It’s also not very nice of you assume what I had stated?

      Your statement in itself shows how we all process information differently.

      If we came from monkeys, why is it slander to refer to someone as a monkey or an ape? Wouldn’t they be our ancestors?

      1. I think you’re being disingenuous here; that’s clearly implied when you say:

        If the theory of evolution is true, then why would we need to be good to one another? If evolution is true, then we are as low as the beasts of the earth.

        Evolution is true. Daniel Dennett notes:

        “The evidence of evolution pours in, not only from geology, paleontology, biogeography, and anatomy (Darwin’s chief sources), but from molecular biology and every other branch of the life sciences. To put it bluntly but fairly, anyone today who doubts that the variety of life on this planet was produced by a process of evolution is simply ignorant — inexcusably ignorant, in a world where three out of four people have learned to read and write. Doubts about the power of Darwin’s idea of natural selection to explain this evolutionary process are still intellectually respectable, however, although the burden of proof for such skepticism has become immense.”

        Darwin’s Dangerous Idea : Evolution and the Meanings of Life (1995)

        Moreover, accepting evolution and being a Christian are not incompatible. See “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution”, a 1973 essay by the evolutionary biologist and Eastern Orthodox Christian Theodosius Dobzhansky.

        From an evolutionary perspective, it benefits humanity’s reproductive success that we are, on the whole, good to one another. And we are not alone in this; we see similar social behaviors among many intelligent species, including other apes, cetaceans, corvids, and so on.

        (But modern monkeys and apes are not our ancestors, only our cousins!)

        /@

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          Ok, so since I do not accept evolution I am being disingenuous? Is that your argument? An obsession over consensus.

          The Bible is the word of God, it is also the best selling book in all of humanity. Believe for yourself, just because some Christians believe in evolution, does that then disprove God? What is the correlation between God’s creation and evolution?

          How has consensus worked throughout history? Like I stated prior. I know that science is proof of God and his work, however; it is not the only proof. I have faith in God, not in humans. Man and woman throughout history has proven that no matter where or when, they will always desire power and influence.

          God’s message is free and simple, do you believe it or not? Scientists practice science for profit, power and influence. The majority of all religion’s “leaders” preach for profit, power and influence as well.

          If evolution is true then why is questioning evolution looked down upon (check out the comments section). If you question the religion that people practice, again the same is true. Questions are not encouraged or allowed in either from those who do not practice.

          If the science is true, where is the missing link? Do you have faith in the scientists that declared that evolution is true? Or do you have faith in God? How do you determine truth, if you were not present for either? Evolution is still theory, do you believe that the same is true of God?

          How are we cousins with primates? Where is the proof? Because we discovered DNA recently, and somehow we think that we can read DNA? Science continually changes, theories are proven and disproven. Are we really that intelligent to know what we are looking at when we see it? If we do not witness it ourselves, how can we know for sure?

          Faith in God is the same, you cannot truly believe until you see it for yourself. I have witnessed God’s action in my life. I am not the greatest person, nor do I deserve God’s love, yet he still took care of me.

          Your comment was very thoughtful and concise. Thank you for taking the time to read, comment and participate. I hope we can further continue this conversation.

          1. You’re objecting to things I didn’t say!

            My comment about disingenuousness was referring to your reply to Albert, not your original post.

            I didn’t say anything about believing God or not, or proving or disproving the existence of God. Nor am I going to (here).

            “Scientists practice science for profit, power and influence.” I think you are very misguided about the salaries scientists, certainly evolutionary biologists, earn, or the power they have, or their influence! I’ve certainly earned more money by moving into technology than I would have continuing in a career as a theoretical physicist.

            Naïvely questioning evolution is looked down on precisely because it is true. As Dennett observed there is just too much evidence that establishes beyond any reasonable doubt the fact and theory of evolution. Certainly not every aspect of evolutionary biology is fully understood, and arguments about punctuated equilibrium, epigenetics, and group selection still rage – but these arguments will be settled in time by weight of evidence, not by any appeal to a bestselling book.

            “[W]here is the missing link?” Between what and what? Ape and man? There are many links (although some might still be missing; the fossil record is notoriously patchy). There is clear evidence of descent from an ancestor ape.

            I am convinced by the weight of evidence. There is far too much to summarise in a comment in a blog post. Even the best popular summaries only scratch the surface. But if you haven’t read at least one of these (or similar) it‘s doubtful that you really understand what it is you’re disputing:
            • Why Evolution Is True by Jerry Coyne
            • 
            The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins
            • Evolution : what the fossils say and why it matters by Donald R. Prothero

            But the full body of evidence spans countless scientific papers by thousands of scientists over hundreds of years.

            “How are we cousins with primates?” Because we share a common ancestor. Again, there’s a huge body of evidence, not just from genetics (DNA), but from “geology, paleontology, biogeography, and anatomy […] from molecular biology and every other branch of the life sciences”.

            “Science continually changes, theories are proven and disproven.” Science advances but converging asymptotically on the truth. Nothing is ever proven absolutely, but there is much that is established beyond any rational doubt. Hypotheses might be falsified, but a theory, such as the theory of evolution by natural selection &c., is unlikely to be, almost by definition, as a theory is based on a body of knowledge that has been thoroughly validated. Our scientific understanding might broaden and deepen, and older theories can thereby be improved. (For example, in another field, Newton’s theory of gravity is just a special case of Einstein’s, general relativity, for smaller masses – i.e., planetary rather than solar/stellar. It is still Newton’s equations that are used to plot the trajectories of space probes with astonishing precision!)

            “Are we really that intelligent to know what we are looking at when we see it?” Frankly, yes …

            “Epistemic humility—the recognition that we could be wrong—is a virtue in science as it is in daily life, but surely we have some reason for thinking, some four centuries after the start of the scientific revolution, that Aristotle was on the wrong track and that we are not, or at least not yet. Our reasons for thinking this are obvious and uncontroversial: mechanistic explanations and an abandonment of supernatural causality proved enormously fruitful in expanding our ability to predict and control the world around us. The fruits of the scientific revolution, though at odds with common sense, allow us to send probes to Mars and to understand why washing our hands prevents the spread of disease.”
            — Brian Leiter and Michael Weisberg, “Do You Only Have a Brain? On Thomas Nagel”

            (And please note that the very fact that we are having this conversation on this medium is a testament to the success of the scientific revolution!)

            “Faith in God is the same, you cannot truly believe until you see it for yourself.” And yet conceptions of God only continue to diverge, unlike scientific ideas. I understand that you are deeply sincere in your personal beliefs, but you know there are billions of other believers, equally sincere, that don’t share them. In fact, there are likely many times more religious people that would disagree with you than there are atheists who would. (Just to be clear, not all atheists accept the fact of evolution!)

            /@

              1. bottomlesscoffee007

                How many times has the current truth been proven later to be false throughout history? How can anyone know that today we got it right? Is it faith, or is the science done and the answers are in?

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              Awesome comment. Very thoughtful and very concise. One question I have for you, do you have faith and where does that faith lie?

              Nowhere in my original post did I disparage anyone else’s beliefs or faiths. I spoke of my own faith and my own experience. I also asked some questions.

              I’ll admit that I don’t know much about science, religion, theology, etc. etc. etc., however; a sense of knowing shows more lack of knowledge, since the mind has already been made up.

              This conversation has been wonderful, this is what I set out to encourage. Questions and criticisms, possibly the same foundations of science.

              The other aspect that seems to be missed though is how everyone translates and processes information differently. We cannot all he expected to follow the same mantra, think alike or arrive to the same conclusions. Science is not measured on concensus, it is either correct or incorrect. Even when a theory or hypothesis is considered final and true, there is a chance that it could later be disproven. The idea that today we know now what was wrong in the past, seems to be a self defeating idea. It ain’t right till it’s right and it ain’t wrong until it’s wrong.

              Religion and faith are two separate categories. Faith is not concensus, it is individual and intimate.

              I am open to all criticism as are my beliefs and my faith.

        2. Albert Habichdobinger

          Again, you claiming that people, who do not believe in the creation of humans by a divine entity but accept evolution as a fact, are basically without morality and bad persons, is wrong and for a Christian, as I assume you are, not very nice. There is also the question of which divine entity did the creation. Was it the Christian god or any other of the allegedly existing deities? If you believe it was the Trinity, what about the people believing it was a different God? Are they in your view also immoral, bad and like beasts?

          1. bottomlesscoffee007

            There it is, judgement. Judging my Christianity based on your interpretation of my faith. Are you wrong for judging me or are you right?

            It’s funny how people tell me what is nice and what is not nice based on their beliefs. The other aspect of this discussion is how many still have not presented irrefutable proof of evolution. Everyone would rather argue the existence of God. I know we will never agree, but this is productive none the less.

            It is interesting how many are ready to shame me into conformity by telling me that I am not nice. Telling me that I am not very Christian or an idiot, primate, etc. etc. etc.

            Is it so very scary that I do not believe in evolution? If it is not, why the slander from most commentators?

            The good acts that we define as manners or whatever else come from the 10 Commandments. That is the foundation of humanity and the very laws God gave us. Our pride leads us to believe that we are good simply because we are intelligent.

            Christianity and Islam share the foundational belief that God created us. Both refute evolution. Christianity and Islam, I am not referring to the people, but the belief and faith.

          2. Albert Habichdobinger

            I may say that you are scientifically ignorant, that your line of argumentation is rather pedestrian and that your belief in a divinely created human species is not supported by facts. But nowhere do I declare you as being immoral, bad and like a beast. That is your claim about people accepting evolution, a dehumanizing statement in nature.
            What you believe is your business and since I do not know you I cannot make any claims about you. You actually might be a nice person.
            But that is not the issue. Your claims about people accepting evolution is the issue. They are actually dangerous since they deny that said people can be good people. This not good, not good at all.

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              Now I’m called ignorant. My claims are dangerous? How is that? I was asking if evolution is true, doesn’t that mean that we are as low as the beasts? If we are evolved from lower beasts, then at what point did we become humans with morals?

              Call me whatever you want. But questions and questioning is how we discover for ourselves. I believe what I believe and the same to you. Science is practiced with criticism and questions.

              Assigning danger to discussion is a way to distract from the point of the topic. All we are doing is talking.

              1. Albert Habichdobinger

                You made the claims and now you feel offended because I take them serious and you come up with this lame excuse that we are only talking. Words have consequences, so much you should know.

                1. bottomlesscoffee007

                  I don’t feel offended, you stated yourself that you do not know me. You called me ignorant, I was just surprised that you took it to that level.

                  How do you know my claims are false? Words have consequences, or do statements have consequences? The consequences are up to interpretation. When did conversation become dangerous?

                  I have faith in God. Who or what do you have faith in? What do you know to be true and what do you know to be false?

                  1. Albert Habichdobinger

                    I called you scientifically ignorant and I stand by this claim. It does not mean that you are overall ignorant. You seem to have some knowledge about the bible and religious things.
                    Words have consequences and there is no debate about this. If you imply that people, who accept evolution, are immoral and less human or not human at all, then you also imply that they can and should be persecuted or at least sanctioned if conditions permit. In pluralistic societies like the US or Western Europe this is not what we do.
                    This is getting repetetive. You made the claims and you are supposed to own them and not weasel out if challenged.

                    1. bottomlesscoffee007

                      Weasel out, where do you come up with this stuff? Did you read my original post? Have you been reading my comments? Now your just throwing out accusations, that’s referred to as projection. When have I ever called for anyone to be punished for their beliefs? Never, I have never made the claim or suggested any such action. I don’t claim to have any knowledge of the Bible or of science. I am only asking a question.

                      It is those who believe in evolution that seem to have a problem with me asking a question or countering their claim. Ignorant is ignorant, no matter what you preface it with.

                      I’ve never claimed religion. I’ve only spoken about my faith. I’ve implied nothing, not in my post or in any of the comments.

                      The accusations that you so easily toss my way are very eye opening. It seems that the “danger” you accused me of earlier is thinking and choosing for oneself.

                      You own the claims and accusations that you have accused me of with no proof. Again, you are blaming me for something that I never stated.

                      So, you say words have consequences and there is no debate about this. What else do you refuse to debate? What other questions are not allowed according to you?

                      I get the feeling that if you cannot censor me, you will then accuse me. I had no idea this was about winning for you.

                    2. Albert Habichdobinger

                      “If evolution is true, then we are as low as the beasts of the earth.”
                      That’s one of your claims and it is not a question. Say what you want it implies that people, who accept evolution, are like beasts and probably can be treated like beasts. My initial statement still stands: Whether you like it or not, this is a dehumanizing claim by you.

                    3. bottomlesscoffee007

                      When did I ever say that people should be treated as beasts? Dehumanizing, wow, it seems that you desire to dehumanize me. There you go again with your attempt to shame me into conformity. If you notice in my post, I referred to myself, no one else.

                      The statement that you are referring to states “We”, not them or any others. What is it that makes this statement wrong? If we evolved, what did we evolve from? If we evolved from beasts, then are we still beasts? Are we still evolving or have we stopped? Are we above the animals of the earth or are we kin with the animals?

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      You will be judged by God for the sins that you have committed. If you are never judged, then what is the purpose to life? The purpose to life is to spread God’s word, not the word of man or woman. I accept that what I believe and have faith in is dismissed by many. I have faith in God, not in man or woman.

      1. Jimbo

        But certainly there are plenty of people who don’t believe as you do, yet still find purpose in life. Others may say life has no “purpose”, yet still find it worth living. Are all those people liars?

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          That’s not for me to say. To each their own. But it doesn’t mean that this conversation is moot.

  10. Jimbo

    “If evolution were correct, then why are there still animals on earth?” Can you explain what you mean? I think I might know, but I’m not sure.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      I’m asking, has evolution ceased or is it ongoing? If evolution is true, where did we come from? Where is the missing link, the actual proof that would prove evolution to the world?

      Those who believe and have faith in God do so because they have felt and seen God in their life. Evolution is still theory. What is the definition of “Theory”? Yet evolution is taught as if it is fact, yet it has never been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Evolution is forced upon children in school by people who cannot day for themselves if it is true or false.

      If evolution were true, then why would there remain single cell organisms? If evolution were true, why does man and woman still practice the same evil from thousands of years ago (rape, murder, lies, greed)?

      1. Jimbo

        That’s basically what I thought you meant. And your original question, and your response to mine make appear that you don’t actually understand the theory of evolution (or biology generally) enough to know what it is you think you disagree with.

        If one or both of your parents are still alive, why are they still here? If you have kids, why are *you* still here? Think about it.

        One more way of looking at it: why would a creator create more than one form of life?

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          Sure, but why do we think that we know or understand? I believe that the idea of our current society somehow being enlightened has corrupted our minds and has made our pride swell. I’m not attempting to change your mind. All I am asking is how do you know?

          I do not know, I have faith. It is that simple. I don’t expect to know, nor do I expect the answers. Humility is what is needed to embrace what we do not know. The split between creation and evolution in my mind means very simply that one day I will be judged for what I have committed. I never made a claim that others must believe what I believe.

          Yet for some reason, I counter a point that states that evolution is true. Before you know it I am being slandered. Is it bad that I do not subscribe to evolution in your opinion?

          To each their own. Surprisingly though, that mannerism is not shared among some. Are we asking too many questions or not enough questions?

          You must believe for yourself as I believe for myself.

          1. Jimbo

            Everyone has “faith” of a sort, even scientists — in their own senses, and ability to reason, if nothing else. What makes science different is the idea that what we think we know is never written in stone, it is always subject to testing and verification, or modification if that’s what the data tell us. And this kind of agnosticism (“I don’t know”, “I could be wrong” or “It’s not possible to know”) seem to me the most humble point-of-view.

            Prof. Coyne’s blog (and book) might not seem to have the most humble title, but no one would bat an eye at “Relativity Is True” or “Cell Theory Is True”. One is absolutely entitled to think evolution *isn’t* true, but perhaps not to expect handshakes all around when one walks into a room full of evolutionists to exclaim that opinion (especially with no apparent facts to back it up.)

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              This is the best comment. Thank you so very much Jimbo. This is what I was asking to begin with. We all have faith in some sort or another. My faith is with God and to each their own.

              Great comment, thank you so much for reading, commenting and participating.

  11. Isn’t it a bit mean of god to invent evolution, provide over-whelming evidnece for it that any rational creature cannot avoid embracing, then punish you for believing in it? What sort of god would do that? Not one worth worshipping, I would contend.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      What proof? Specifically what proof is there? Not the findings of other people. What is your definitive proof?

    2. bottomlesscoffee007

      Then again, are humans truly rational? Emotions have caused more damage than good. Hubris is emotional that is off the charts in our world these days.

  12. Tallgrass05

    “I am not an expert in this field but this is what I believe.”

    It’s obvious that you are not an expert on evolution or even basic biology, and belief is not a substitute for facts. There are many simple ways you can actually educate yourself regarding evolution so you can discuss it on some factual basis.

    The nice thing about evolution is that it exists whether you “believe” in it or not.

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Biology does not refute God. Biology, funny you brought that up. Do we even understand everything about biology yet? Or do we just lecture based on the findings of others?

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Hahahah, you mean opinion. Believe what you want, but trying to shame someone else into believing your ideas is what tyrannical dictators do.

  13. Thanks for your post. I believe in Creation because I believe in God and His Word. Hubby and I were discussing evolution this morning during our devotions and agree that our world is constantly evolving in one way or another. However, Genisis 1:1 tells the whole truth and nothing but the truth concering Creation. It doesn’t say that in the beginning evolution made the heavens and the earth . . . I’m with you. Creation is the awesome work of God. And how did God get here? If any of us knew that we’d be like God. Some things we just have to take by faith and stop trying to figure everything out and proving whether or not it’s true. I choose to believe, much less complicated! ~Sandi

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      Exactly right Sandi. The aspect of evolution that seems to escape it’s believers is that they exercise faith as well, faith in the scientists that proclaim evolution is fact. Both are simple in their beliefs and both require faith. The other argument that seems to cause contention is adaptation versus evolution.

      I do not know that much about the Bible or science. But I know that both require faith, no matter how much one reads or studies either.

      1. You’re right. It does take faith. When I was a teen, I dated an atheist and we could get into some interesting debates. What I learned most about him was his emptiness, saddness, and hopelessness. As hard as I tried, he just couldn’t believe in what he couldn’t see.

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          We all see in our own time, that’s why faith is individual. We cannot expect others to believe or have faith based on our experience. They must experience it themselves if they are to truly believe.

          1. That is so true. Having gone to church most of my life, I blindly got sucked into legalisim and even believing that it was a sin to go to movies and dancing and all that other junk forced down my throat. It messed me up. Then, after 14 years of working at the church, my eyes were opened wide. I don’t go to church anymore. Hubby and I have church on our back porch with the birds and squirrels and our two dogs. And you know what? God is more real than ever before. I’m not suggesting that anyone not go to church. I’m so glad I was raised to believe as I believe. But I really had to find out for myself what was really true. I still laugh about the first time a church member saw my tattoo. She squinched her eyes together and blurted, “When did you get that??” That tattoo represents my freedom from all the falsehood I got tangled up in. But people like that lady would never understand that, so I didn’t waste my breath trying to explain it. Just like I did, she’ll have to find out for herself.

  14. I’m not sure why this matters but I’m stating up front that I am a Christian to save time from people asking me irrelevant questions about my faith since I should just be able to post my opinion without qualifiers for both sides.

    You stated — “If you believe in evolution, then you attempt to abscond from judgement.”

    My response — This statement is nonsensical, if one is a believer then they already know there is no way to abscond from judgement. If one is a non-believer then they don’t care or believe in judgement, thus literally, no need to abscond from it.

    You stated — “If the theory of evolution is true, then why would we need to be good to one another?”

    My response — I’m awestruck by this statement, Buddhist monks are atheist, they believe in zero Gods as a religion. They have a philosophy of being good to each other. Believing in God has nothing to do with human nature but everything to do with a relationship with God. People don’t become better people because they believe in God. You yourself said it in your post; “I am afraid of the sin that I have done and the sin that I will do.”. You have no intention to stop sinning, you already know for a fact that you will continue to sin, so all the people are in the same boat, sinners awaiting judgment. Some people are good to others and some aren’t and some of them are Christian and some aren’t.

    You stated — “If evolution is true, then we are as low as the beasts of the earth”

    My response — Wrong! If evolution is true then it means God made evolution. Who knows what we will find in the next 100 years! We could all be in a simulation that God made. However we got here I bet the plan wasn’t for someone to beat what they don’t know over someone’s else’s unsure way of thinking.

    You stated — “We strive to be clean, we strive to be good, why? Because we know that in our hearts, we will eventually answer for what we have done. ”

    My response — So let me get this right, the only reason you do good is because you want God to not punish you? We should want to do good regardless of reward or punishment. Those who love God should love others and want to do good because of love Jesus has shown to us, not because of loss. It was a love freely given with no payback required and yet here we are and you are stating the only reason to love someone else is if it gets you out of trouble. Yikes!!!

    Just a thought

    1. bottomlesscoffee007

      I was writing of my faith. The conflict is, we are all human, we are all sinners, we are all equal. We are told to love yet we hate, we are told to be good yet we do bad. The realization of recognizing that we all are corrupt in some form or fashion. We all have bias in our head and in our heart.

      You may believe in evolution, however; I do not. I do not attempt to be good because I want to be accepted by God, I desire to be good in all I do because I desire God’s forgiveness when I am judged.

      This may sound alarming to you, but I try to do good, yet like love it takes work. Nobody does anything for nothing, it may sound greedy, but it is the truth. I am not holding my hand out or demanding payment for attempting good. I just know that this is what I must do and it ain’t easy.

      This is your interpretation of the post and ultimately it is up to the reader to decide what I am writing.

      Humans are corrupt, no matter how you try to parse it, evil happens. Sin is sin, sin is equal, we may sugar coat sin as bad to worse, but sin is sin. I attempt to love and accept because I know that is what I am supposed to do. I strive to be clean, because cleanliness is a lifelong achievement. I strive to be good, good is not one day or one year of goodness, it is a lifetime. God loves all, yet I know that I am not worthy of his love or attention or his grace.

      Beating something over someone’s head? Too often God is blamed for the actions of man claiming to work for God. The words are God’s words, yet man being corrupt uses them to control the masses. God gave man free will, free will to decide. Man craves power in all aspects. No matter if you are a monk or a criminal. Look at the corruption of the church for centuries, God is blamed, when man is the perpetrator.

      What do Buddhist monks believe in the after life, where is their motivation for goodness and humility?

      Evolution, is it bad to not believe in it? That’s why Christianity is different from all other faiths and religions, we all believe, yet we can never agree on how to believe. So we argue and accuse, instead of accepting that we all believe in God.

      1. You stated — “You may believe in evolution, however; I do not.”

        My response — I have no thoughts about evolution. It doesn’t seem to have any practical value other than to be used in arguments or provide work for less than 1% of the population.

        You stated — “I do not attempt to be good because I want to be accepted by God, I desire to be good in all I do because I desire God’s forgiveness when I am judged.”

        My response — Then you have a strange denomination of Christianity because in my faith we are saved by Christ now, not when judged. Unless one does not believe in the sacrifice made by Christ or his promise.

        You stated — I attempt to love and accept because I know that is what I am supposed to do. I strive to be clean, because cleanliness is a lifelong achievement”, “I strive to be good, good is not one day or one year of goodness, it is a lifetime.”

        My response — This would be another strange aspect of your denomination. In my faith no one is clean and they can’t make themselves clean no matter how much time is allowed. Only Jesus can cover our sins with his blood. We also cannot be good since Jesus stated that only God is good. Your religion is very strange to me.

        We can do good things, just for the record.

        You stated — “Evolution, is it bad to not believe in it?”

        My response — It doesn’t matter if you believe in it since it doesn’t do anything. It has no good or bad value. It is simply information.

        You stated — “That’s why Christianity is different from all other faiths and religions, we all believe, yet we can never agree on how to believe. So we argue and accuse, instead of accepting that we all believe in God.”

        My response — You just defined every religion. They are all the same as us (with the exception of which God). They argue the same and they fracture the same splitting off in different directions to argue.

        1. bottomlesscoffee007

          It is not my religion rather my faith. Again, just because God forgives and cleanses us, does not remove the inherent responsibility we have to do good.

          He saves, yet how many of us are truly worth saving? Realizing that I am a hypocrite and I am a sinner makes it easier to realize that I am blessed to even be recognized by God.

          You are correct that God cleanses and that he saves. I understand your confusion, yet I know who I am and the struggle that I face. It may seem strange and perhaps we have more in common than we realize.

          I know the life I have led up till now, I have been a Christian since I was a child, yet I have sinned and I will continue to sin, since I am man, and I am and have the ability to be corrupt.

          I must admit to myself and to God, that I am unfit and that I am unworthy, if I am to attempt humility and consciousness daily. To not be caught up in the moment, because once I forget for one second I will succumb to sin again and again.

          This all may seem strange to you, but this is the daily exercise that I attempt.

          Lastly, what other belief or religion has as many denominations as Christianity? You still didn’t answer my question concerning the Buddhist monks and their motivation for goodness and humility.

          1. You stated — “He saves, yet how many of us are truly worth saving?”

            My response — Apparently all:

            “Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. (Romans 5:18 NIV)”

            You stated — “You are correct that God cleanses and that he saves. I understand your confusion”

            My response — I never said you were saved, he did:

            “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV).”

            Since I didn’t say it how can I be confused? But he did say it so are you saying he is confused?

            You stated — “It may seem strange and perhaps we have more in common than we realize.”

            My response — We are both human, we have almost everything in common, it goes without saying.

            You stated — “This all may seem strange to you, but this is the daily exercise that I attempt.”

            My response — It doesn’t seem strange it seems dishonest. People sin because they want to, it’s a choice. God isn’t a lier, people can stop sinning if they choose to.

            1 Corinthians 10:13
            13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

            You asked — “Lastly, what other belief or religion has as many denominations as Christianity?”

            My Answer — We have the most but others have hundreds and thousands. With numbers that high I’m not sure it matters.

            You asked — “You still didn’t answer my question concerning the Buddhist monks and their motivation for goodness and humility.”

            My Answer — Never thought about it, like most religions I’m sure it’s over complicated. There are good and bad Monks so they are in the same boat, nothing special about them to consider. If they are raised in town A it may be to have more spirit energy, and if the are raised in town B it may be to honor the dead relatives. They have to many denominations to keep up with. They even now have Christian Monks.

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              Here it goes, again, you throw scripture to reinforce your point, yet you do not speak of your faith as an individual. You never fully or simply answered my question about the monks, originally you made the claim that they were atheist, that were simply good, because they desired to be good, now you acknowledge their Christianity, and still no full answer to back up your original claim. Yet, it seems that you were attempting to draw a parallel.

              Your word play is quite interesting and methodical. Perhaps to confuse or meddle. You make the accusation that I am referring to God as confused, when we where having the discussion, I was referring to our obvious inability to connect or your confusion with my statements.

              As I have stated, this is my faith, I never claimed it was to be followed or anything else by anyone else. From my experience, no matter how many times I have read the Bible, I continue to find new things that stand out to me. I am no expert, but I know what I have experienced and felt throughout my lifetime. My faith does not have to satisfy you or anyone else, as it is mine.

              More accusations of dishonesty and judgement based on your interpretation of a faith that is foreign to you, because it is mine. I believe for my own reasons as I am sure you do as well.

              It’s simple, you either have faith in God, or you have faith in something else (I am not specifically addressing you, but all of us). Faith is individual, yet if you quote scripture, I will ask questions and ask some more, since you seem to be an “expert” of sorts. It is cheap to refer to my questions as questioning God, when you have taken it upon yourself to “preach” to me. During this entire discussion, I have never called you out on your beliefs or referred to your faith as strange or wrong.

              You can claim by quoting scripture that we can either choose sin or not to sin, and that God will not make us endure what we cannot, yet this is where faith comes in again. When we are measured or tested, we do not know how we will react in the moment. It is easy to sit back and wonder and hope, but you don’t know until you know.

              I can understand and appreciate your willingness to discuss this further, as it is not discussed enough. Thank you.

              1. You stated — “Here it goes, again, you throw scripture to reinforce your point, yet you do not speak of your faith as an individual.”

                My response — I didn’t write the Bible so I don’t have an opinion outside of it about religious beliefs or faith. This should make the conversation easier since I don’t use any internal confusing hypocritical thinking to muddle it up. You literally can back me into a definite position and stop me from arguing simply by showing me the scripture and I will change my mind.

                You stated — “You never fully or simply answered my question about the monks, originally you made the claim that they were atheist, that were simply good, because they desired to be good, now you acknowledge their Christianity, and still no full answer to back up your original claim.”

                My response — LOL. The religion is atheist because it doesn’t have a God, individuals can form denominations where they can add a God like Christian Buddhist, it’s optional just like in other religions. Think of Mormons and scientologist where they mix Jesus with golden books or space aliens. Did you think Buddha was a God or something? As for being good they are not, I said they have a policy for doing good to each other and strangers. It doesn’t make them good people, but it does make them far more pleasant to deal with. They are still just people (nothing magical going on there). If you need me to provide info on Buddhist then here is some quick google I did, personally I see no reason to become more educated in another confusing thickly layered religion.

                https://www.thoughtco.com/atheism-and-devotion-in-buddhism-449718
                Their quote: “Buddhism is not about either believing or not believing in God or gods. Rather, the historical Buddha taught that believing in gods was not useful for those seeking to realize enlightenment. In other words, God is unnecessary in Buddhism, as this is a practical religion and philosophy that emphasizes practical results over faith in beliefs or deities. For this reason, Buddhism is more accurately called nontheistic rather than atheistic.”

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism
                Their quote: “Buddhism (/ˈbʊdɪzəm/, US also /ˈbuː-/)[1][2] is the world’s fourth-largest religion[3][4] with over 520 million followers, or over 7% of the global population, known as Buddhists.[web 1][5] An Indian religion, Buddhism encompasses a variety of traditions, beliefs and spiritual practices largely based on original teachings attributed to the Buddha and resulting interpreted philosophies. Buddhism originated in Ancient India as a Sramana tradition sometime between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE, spreading through much of Asia.”

                You stated — “Your word play is quite interesting and methodical. Perhaps to confuse or meddle.”

                My response — Communication between people is perhaps the greatest challenge of mankind. It has sparked wars due to misunderstanding. Try to be less defensive and impatient and simply re-push your questions. If I am not being clear and you re-ask I usually try to do a better job answering. In other words, keep it light no need for a dramatic conspiracy of me being a master at words and confusion lol.

                You stated — “You make the accusation that I am referring to God as confused, when we where having the discussion, I was referring to our obvious inability to connect or your confusion with my statements.”

                My response — That’s fair, I was simply stating that I don’t have any position other than literal scripture so any disagreement isn’t with me. Just to be clear I will give an example. I am a sinner and I don’t claim to know the mind of God so if the following happens:

                If I say to someone: “We shouldn’t call anyone father but God.”

                Then they say: “You sound crazy, you should call your dad father.”

                Then I respond: I didn’t write it so how could I be crazy, it’s not my reasoning or command so are you call the person who said it crazy?

                Matthew 23:9 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

                I keep it simple, the Bible is not my writing. The author should be called out if someone doesn’t believe it or agree with it not the messenger.

                You stated — “As I have stated, this is my faith, I never claimed it was to be followed or anything else by anyone else.”

                My response — Seems fair, same here and same for everyone else. Seems like an obvious statement to make. My faith is not the same as yours and that is what we are talking about, not who’s faith is better. So, I would say let’s not waste time on obvious logic and focus on more exciting differences.

                You stated — “More accusations of dishonesty and judgement based on your interpretation of a faith that is foreign to you, because it is mine.”

                My response — There may be some confusion here, I was referring to a dishonest description not a dishonest faith. I’m not sure if there can be a dishonest faith since faith is not tangible or detectable. Faith is something between an individual and God, thus it can never be known by anyone else as to what it is.

                You stated — “It’s simple, you either have faith in God, or you have faith in something else (I am not specifically addressing you, but all of us).”

                My response — This is where we may be running into muddled confusion because I would call you out on this statement. There are 3 options, (1)faith in God (ours), (2)faith in something else or (3) no faith. I’m not sure how you are receiving my responses, but I assure you that I am not attacking you, I am simply providing an alternative opinion.

                You post your opinion. I post my response which is an alternative opinion. The argument is a difference in opinion but nothing more than that.

                You stated — “I have never called you out on your beliefs or referred to your faith as strange or wrong.”

                My response — If you do or don’t has no value to the truth. My faith is strange and again we are not the same so calling yours strange may have more meaning, to me strange means fascinating. I find your belief system to be curious, strange, interesting. I am simply trying to understand it more. I have no interest in you being right or wrong since I have no personal position other than literal Bible scripture.

                You stated — You can claim by quoting scripture that we can either choose sin or not to sin, and that God will not make us endure what we cannot, yet this is where faith comes in again.

                My response — I didn’t claim anything, I didn’t write the scripture or the book it came from. You may be referring to the authors claims not mine. I sin all the time and the Author told me through scripture that I sin because I want to and that I have the option to stop. The author also said I was forgiven and not to worry.

                If you are asking for my personal opinion on what the author is saying, then the only reference I have is when children disobey parents and then blame it on thin air as though we don’t know the truth. We simply ask them to own up to it and go forward by not doing it again. Sometimes they obey and often they do not, but we know they can if they wanted. We tend to forgive them (if we are decent parents) others blame them and point fingers (like the accuser does).

                I’m not sure if that helps or not since I don’t have a position on scripture, I simply do not oppose it and choose to believe it absent of my own understanding.

              2. You stated — “Here it goes, again, you throw scripture to reinforce your point, yet you do not speak of your faith as an individual.”
                My response — I didn’t write the Bible so I don’t have an opinion outside of it about religious beliefs or faith. This should make the conversation easier since I don’t use any internal confusing hypocritical thinking to muddle it up. You literally can back me into a definite position and stop me from arguing simply by showing me the scripture and I will change my mind.

                You stated — “You never fully or simply answered my question about the monks, originally you made the claim that they were atheist, that were simply good, because they desired to be good, now you acknowledge their Christianity, and still no full answer to back up your original claim.”

                My response — LOL. The religion is atheist because it doesn’t have a God, individuals can form denominations where they can add a God like Christian Buddhist, it’s optional just like in other religions. Think of Mormons and scientologist where they mix Jesus with golden books or space aliens. Did you think Buddha was a God or something? As for being good they are not, I said they have a policy for doing good to each other and strangers. It doesn’t make them good people, but it does make them far more pleasant to deal with. They are still just people (nothing magical going on there). If you need me to provide info on Buddhist then here is some quick google I did, personally I see no reason to become more educated in another confusing thickly layered religion.

                https://www.thoughtco.com/atheism-and-devotion-in-buddhism-449718
                Their quote: “Buddhism is not about either believing or not believing in God or gods. Rather, the historical Buddha taught that believing in gods was not useful for those seeking to realize enlightenment. In other words, God is unnecessary in Buddhism, as this is a practical religion and philosophy that emphasizes practical results over faith in beliefs or deities. For this reason, Buddhism is more accurately called nontheistic rather than atheistic.”

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism
                Their quote: “Buddhism (/ˈbʊdɪzəm/, US also /ˈbuː-/)[1][2] is the world’s fourth-largest religion[3][4] with over 520 million followers, or over 7% of the global population, known as Buddhists.[web 1][5] An Indian religion, Buddhism encompasses a variety of traditions, beliefs and spiritual practices largely based on original teachings attributed to the Buddha and resulting interpreted philosophies. Buddhism originated in Ancient India as a Sramana tradition sometime between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE, spreading through much of Asia.”

                You stated — “Your word play is quite interesting and methodical. Perhaps to confuse or meddle.”

                My response — Communication between people is perhaps the greatest challenge of mankind. It has sparked wars due to misunderstanding. Try to be less defensive and impatient and simply re-push your questions. If I am not being clear and you re-ask I usually try to do a better job answering. In other words, keep it light no need for a dramatic conspiracy of me being a master at words and confusion lol.

              3. You stated — “You make the accusation that I am referring to God as confused, when we where having the discussion, I was referring to our obvious inability to connect or your confusion with my statements.”

                My response — That’s fair, I was simply stating that I don’t have any position other than literal scripture so any disagreement isn’t with me. Just to be clear I will give an example. I am a sinner and I don’t claim to know the mind of God so if the following happens:

                If I say to someone: “We shouldn’t call anyone father but God.”

                Then they say: “You sound crazy, you should call your dad father.”

                Then I respond: I didn’t write it so how could I be crazy, it’s not my reasoning or command so are you call the person who said it crazy?

                Matthew 23:9 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

                I keep it simple, the Bible is not my writing. The author should be called out if someone doesn’t believe it or agree with it not the messenger.

                You stated — “As I have stated, this is my faith, I never claimed it was to be followed or anything else by anyone else.”

                My response — Seems fair, same here and same for everyone else. Seems like an obvious statement to make. My faith is not the same as yours and that is what we are talking about, not who’s faith is better. So, I would say let’s not waste time on obvious logic and focus on more exciting differences.

                You stated — “More accusations of dishonesty and judgement based on your interpretation of a faith that is foreign to you, because it is mine.”

                My response — There may be some confusion here, I was referring to a dishonest description not a dishonest faith. I’m not sure if there can be a dishonest faith since faith is not tangible or detectable. Faith is something between an individual and God, thus it can never be known by anyone else as to what it is.

                You stated — “It’s simple, you either have faith in God, or you have faith in something else (I am not specifically addressing you, but all of us).”

                My response — This is where we may be running into muddled confusion because I would call you out on this statement. There are 3 options, (1)faith in God (ours), (2)faith in something else or (3) no faith. I’m not sure how you are receiving my responses, but I assure you that I am not attacking you, I am simply providing an alternative opinion.

                You post your opinion. I post my response which is an alternative opinion. The argument is a difference in opinion but nothing more than that.

                You stated — “I have never called you out on your beliefs or referred to your faith as strange or wrong.”

                My response — If you do or don’t has no value to the truth. My faith is strange and again we are not the same so calling yours strange may have more meaning, to me strange means fascinating. I find your belief system to be curious, strange, interesting. I am simply trying to understand it more. I have no interest in you being right or wrong since I have no personal position other than literal Bible scripture.

                You stated — You can claim by quoting scripture that we can either choose sin or not to sin, and that God will not make us endure what we cannot, yet this is where faith comes in again.

                My response — I didn’t claim anything, I didn’t write the scripture or the book it came from. You may be referring to the authors claims not mine. I sin all the time and the Author told me through scripture that I sin because I want to and that I have the option to stop. The author also said I was forgiven and not to worry.

                If you are asking for my personal opinion on what the author is saying, then the only reference I have is when children disobey parents and then blame it on thin air as though we don’t know the truth. We simply ask them to own up to it and go forward by not doing it again. Sometimes they obey and often they do not, but we know they can if they wanted. We tend to forgive them (if we are decent parents) others blame them and point fingers (like the accuser does).

                I’m not sure if that helps or not since I don’t have a position on scripture, I simply do not oppose it and choose to believe it absent of my own understanding.

              1. I was just stating that the follow button is not popping up on the page as an FYI. I’m a web programmer and use word press. I tried refreshing the page but no deal. I went to a few other pages to make sure and they still had the follow button. I’m using Chrome if you want to test. No big.

                1. bottomlesscoffee007

                  I usually find the follow button in the comments section of my page. As to where it is on my page persay, I cannot tell you via desktop, I know on smartphones, you must hold the phone horizontally to find the follow button at the bottom right corner.

                  1. ahhh. For most it floats on the bottom right side as a wordpress feature. Some web templates break and it doesn’t show on the desktop. I will look for it near the comments. I wanted to follow your site and get more insight on your perspective.

                    1. bottomlesscoffee007

                      Huh, thanks for the heads up. Your the first one to bring this up, so I guess I’ve always assumed that it was readily available

            1. bottomlesscoffee007

              My page is open to all, nothing is censored and whoever wants to read, comment or ignore is totally ok.

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